Curse

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

I'll probably get flamed for this, but dont really care. I would NOT like to see 8v8 returned because:

7x blood spike necros
6x Evicerate
8x Signet of Mystic Wrath
6-8x Invoke Lightning
6-8x Searing flames
6-8x Spiritual pain

Heres a couple of examples of these ridiculously overpowered builds (Just been done VERY quickly as an example):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Mighty Warrior

With more character slots spike's become stronger damage wise, but become weaker in overall strength. More slots means you can fit in that Cry of Frustration or that extra diversion.

Go ahead and run 6x Glyph of elem power Invoke lightning with mantra of resolve and chained stability. First thing I would do is interrupt stability and then knock you on your ass while you try to spike. With 8v8 comes more counters, try putting up ward of stability when there's actually room to fit interrupts on our chars bars.

No you cannot interupt the stability through resolve TY.

And also Diversion and backfire are easilly counterable with the divert hexes. Call it, it gets removed.

Ok, you could maybe use an extra monk for healing. The insane amount of extra damage the 8 man spike teams would deal would still overpower the extra monk.

Your saying that this isnt a problem because these builds can still be run in 6 man teams? If so 90% of teams still require 2 monks to stay alive, so that leaves 4 spaces....

4x Searing Flame (currently overused) = 476 damage in one hit at the most.
4x Invoke lightning = 424-560 damage (based on AP)
6x Mystic sig = 700ish damage.

Now add an extra two to those figures and tell me how many super monks there are that could infuse or heal up that much damage.

Current FOTM's are no where near as bad as the 8 team FOTM's.

And the reason there are so many less people playing HA nowadays is because blood spike, ranger spike, IWAY and Vimway dont work anymore. Good riddance to you, I much prefer HA in its current state.

Oh, and please bring back heroes in heroes ascent. Thank you.

Divineshadows · Jan 04, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Your saying that this isnt a problem because these builds can still be run in 6 man teams? If so 90% of teams still require 2 monks to stay alive, so that leaves 4 spaces....

4x Searing Flame (currently overused) = 476 damage in one hit at the most.
4x Invoke lightning = 424-560 damage (based on AP)
6x Mystic sig = 700ish damage.

Now add an extra two to those figures and tell me how many super monks there are that could infuse or heal up that much damage.

From your post it is clear that you are completely clueless as to how to beat spikes. More monks is never the answer. The damage output (DPS) that spike builds produce is still far less than pressure builds. Infuse is only a counter to the afterspike. Interrupts and shutdown are how you beat spikes. In 8v8, you had more room to include more interrupts and shutdown. If you chose not to, then so be it but quite simply you lost to spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Oh, and please bring back heroes in heroes ascent. Thank you.

The cap on the number of heroes was a great move, although I would have preferred their total removal. I decided to start playing HA again after the cap on heroes was implemented, because it started to have some sembelance of a PvP format again.

Teh Mighty Warrior · Jan 04, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I'll probably get flamed for this, but dont really care. I would NOT like to see 8v8 returned because:

7x blood spike necros
6x Evicerate
8x Signet of Mystic Wrath
6-8x Invoke Lightning
6-8x Searing flames

Ok, you could maybe use an extra monk for healing. The insane amount of extra damage the 8 man spike teams would deal would still overpower the extra monk.

Your saying that this isnt a problem because these builds can still be run in 6 man teams? If so 90% of teams still require 2 monks to stay alive, so that leaves 4 spaces....

4x Searing Flame (currently overused) = 476 damage in one hit at the most.
4x Invoke lightning = 424-560 damage (based on AP)
6x Mystic sig = 700ish damage.

Now add an extra two to those figures and tell me how many super monks there are that could infuse or heal up that much damage.

Current FOTM's are no where near as bad as the 8 team FOTM's.

And the reason there are so many less people playing HA nowadays is because blood spike, ranger spike, IWAY and Vimway dont work anymore. Good riddance to you, I much prefer HA in its current state.

Oh, and please bring back heroes in heroes ascent. Thank you.

You never needed "super monks" to infuse a spike. A perfect spike, which there are plenty of, is uninfusable if it isn't interrupted. With more character slots spike's become stronger damage wise, but become weaker in overall strength. More slots means you can fit in that Cry of Frustration or that extra diversion. With more slots you can fit in counters to spike builds AND iway AND balanced AND have room for the little things like wb/make haste for relic runs and song of concentration + stability for alter matches. With HA in it's current form it's impossible to include counters that counter every build in the meta (well actually all you really need is 4 spiritual pain mesmers + unnatural signet and you have the meta conquered). You obviously never played 8v8. There were never any "uber" spikes like the ones you predict.

8 searing flames and 8 invoke spikes...wtf you really are stupid aren't you? Who in their right mind would run 8 searing flames or 8 invoke spikers?

I especially like your last line, bring back heroes in heroes ascent...they don't mean pve heroes, they mean the "heroes" that take the hall of "heroes". Is this too hard for you to comprehend?

Bring back 8v8 please.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Yes I am aware that If I had 8v8 again, First thing I'd do is run 6x Glyph of elem power Invoke lightning with Mantra of Resolve and 2x ward of stability. Try shutting that down. Im sure 75% of HA teams would be clueless as how to.

Edit - Also I'd be running 8x mystic wrath spike.

I would love to farm fame by doing this, and then all you elitist would be here again screaming to nerf every decent skill in the game.

lolzorz to you.

Go ahead and run 6x Glyph of elem power Invoke lightning with mantra of resolve and chained stability. First thing I would do is interrupt stability and then knock you on your ass while you try to spike. With 8v8 comes more counters, try putting up ward of stability when there's actually room to fit interrupts on our chars bars.

As for 8x sig of mystic wrath, first try finding 8 bonds, next try finding a way to survive through dual gaze of contempts. With every gimmick build comes a counter, 8v8 will only increase the amount of counters we are allowed to bring.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 04, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

With 8v8 it doesn't matter how many people can pack how many whatevers into a build, because the balanced builds can bring more counters. Running my preferred balanced builds, I'd rape both builds you just posted. You can interrupt through resolve (knockdowns anyone? -dur), and with a 2 monk backline, they'd drop like flies anyway.

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Yes I can really see this being kept civil.

Thank you for spamming this with flame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

You can interrupt through resolve (knockdowns anyone? -dur)anyway.

*Ward of stability*. The chances of interupting 2 of them with knockdowns before they cast is quite slim.

And the idea of these builds as always is to destroy the oposition before they can do anything, which is very likely to happen.

Snype · Jan 04, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Yes I can really see this being kept civil.

Thank you for spamming this with flame.

*Ward of stability*. The chances of interupting 2 of them with knockdowns before they cast is quite slim.

And the idea of these builds as always is to destroy the oposition before they can do anything, which is very likely to happen.

Well sir, I will keep my post civil, and just say that someone who obviously has no experience in 8v8 HA other then what their friends have told them, should not be posting unintelligent dribble in the Heroes Ascent forum. And about your spike...some defense would be nice. Any horrible team with 5 offensive characters could take our your monks and your soft-armor eles even if the eles do manage to spike 1 or 2 of them.

I don't mind people posting their opinions, but when a person who has no idea what they are talking about makes a post that goes against what I (and most of the EXPERIENCED HA community) believes in, I take it personally.

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 04:13 AM // 04:13

I have plenty of experience in 8v8 HA thank you, I got up to rank 5 mostly by monking prior to the 6v6 weekend, and yes a lot of those teams were two or even one monk backlines (one SB/Infuse in Necro spike). And I had been told by plenty of teams I were a great infuser.

I absolutely hated builds like blood spike, IWAY, Vimway etc and would not like to see them return. Everytime I played balanced, we were usually obliterated by builds like these regardless of packing the neccassary counters as they simply have too much DPS.

Also Balanced rarely ever held halls. It was always ranger, blood or some kind of overpowered spike.

Snype · Jan 04, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I am sorry, but if you think that bspikes with 1 monk-backlines lack defense, then you are not as "experienced" as you claim.

Next, if you could not beat vimway/bspike/iway, switch your build, and stop crying about it please.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 04, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

So you're going to have 8 players ward camping stability? You'll be dead really fast. Also, choking gas will drain your energy straight through resolve unless you have like 12 inspiration. Diversion, e-denial, the list goes on. Neither of those builds will work. I DO see where you're coming from, don't get me wrong, but those builds will not work, and 8v8 will be a definite improvement.

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snype

I am sorry, but if you think that bspikes with 1 monk-backlines lack defense, then you are not as "experienced" as you claim.

No I never said that. Neither do wards and two monks in an 8 man team. The monk builds can be adjusted, and they can provide enough support while the spikes fire off.

And if you think those builds wont work YOU are really very inexperienced. Did you ever see chain lightning spike before it got nerfed? Spiritual pains AoE damage doubled up could wipe an entire team in one hit.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 04, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Bhavv, the builds you've posted would be shread to pieces by rank3 iway pug. They lack defense in all fronts, and saving one or two spikes isnt really a problem if you got semi-competent infuser. And by that time, everyone in those two spikes you've posted would be dead. And AoE damage of SP? Ever heard of "dont ball up!"?.

Also vimway didnt dissapeared because 6v6 change, in fact it was dominant in that meta for a short time. The nerf of "victory is mine" skill brought end to this build.

Iway and bloodspike arent problems, and I dont see why some of you mention those names like they would be some horrible, undefeatable threats. One is melee pressure build, the other pure spike. Both have lots of weaknesses, and were VERY EASILY beated by good competent teams, allowed some place for utility slots ( in 8v8 meta ).

Even if its true, and you indeed played some games during good, old times, you dont remember much from it, or your balanced teams sucked.

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Oh, btw I saw team in TA running 3 invoke lightnings and a ZB monk.

It was a VERY powerful spike, the match lasted around 10 mins as we had shelter and I were playing psychic distraction and hit one of them each time, and also since they ran around lots, but once they spiked with 3 invokes followed up by lightning strike/orb after the shelter had gone down, they managed to pick up a few easy kills and we were defeated.

6 invoke lightnings would be very difficult to counter if spiked perfectly, especially if they manage to several targets, the same with spiritual pain. And any IWAY would not be able to survive the spike lol.

shardfenix · Jan 04, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Spiritual Pain will get nerfed
Searing Flames will get nerfed
Invoke Lightning sucks

No problem.

8v8 HA will be fine as long as the skill balance does its job, unlike the last 3 balances we've had.

6v6 didn't ruin HA. Nightfall did.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 04, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Dont compare TA to 8v8 HA. Its compleatly different game. I wont even mention in what way various balanced builds that dominated high-end HA meta would counter such silly builds. They are infinite. I gave you example of IWAY, the most noob-friendly build of that era. Iway got PD mesmer, who would harass your spikers and interrupt the wards. Also, typical iway teams got two infusers, who would have NO problems with slow recharging spike like those. And of course tigers fury warriors + trapper who would obliterate your soft targets in the matter of seconds.

Oh... "hitting several targets" only fools ball-up.

Lorekeeper · Jan 04, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

i have a few questions to make which make your build unlikely to be a dominant fotm build for 8vs8 HA,

1) wat do you do when you face another 6 man spike build? toss a coin?
2) how do you prevent a spike team killing your ghost if you hold the altar?
3) how do you prevent 2 teams outdpsing the heal potential of your 2monks?
4) how do you prevent 2 teams interrupting your ghost?
6) how do you prevent 2 teams capping the altar?
7) how will you spike relic runners with spellbreaker on them (and no snares)?
8) how will you spike teams with angelic bond?
9) if you fail the initial spikes how will your 2 monks keep the entire team up?
10) how will you counter incoming paragons? your first spike is guaranteed to fail... this is usually the first step to defeat for spike builds like this.
11) since the ''perfect'' spike is rarer than a ''good infuser'' how will your spike actually be uninfusable? I have very rarely seen a health bar drop too fast for an infuser... when it does happen... it is awesome but you cannot depend on inflicting perfect spikes every time you call a target... your team is made up of humans they will make timing mistakes... more often than not. And each time you fail to kill someone... the chances of teams outpressuring you increases dramatically.
12) how will you deal with teams who just run away from you in scarred earth? (waiting for a 2nd team to come help)
13) Pyschic distraction works through stances like resolve and concentration... a single pd mes could ruin your perfect spike... what do you do against a team with 2 Pd mes? choking gas rangers will drain your energy so fast you wont believe it.

your 2 monk backline just wont work in 8man tombs. Simply because i have yet to see any 2 monks in the game able to keep an 8man team alive in tombs. iA used to run a 2monk+smiter build i think.. but even that wasnt foolproof because they couldnt hold altars very easily... and thats with the best of the best in terms of tombs players. If anything some teams will run dual paragons and 2 monks... but running 2 monks alone is just not viable.

having 2 extra slots in 8vs8 is not simply a chance to add 2 dmg dealers to form a spike. Which is clearly what you have done here by keeping the same fotm 6vs6 monkbackline.

6vs6 monk backlines will not work in 8vs8... trust me. Monk backlines will look very very different to what they are now...

if you really want to look for potentially dominant fotm 8vs8 builds. Here are a few rough concepts.

New iway (everyone will love or hate this build)

3 steady stance fear me wars/regular iway wars
1 trapper smoke trap
2 necro/monk healers or paragons
1 grenth dervish

euro-spike

1-2 wars (rank 6+ will run this)
2-3 mes
1 ele or paragon
3 monk

spirit spammers (will be a pain for the good balance teams)
similiar to the spirit spamming 6vs6 build but with an extra ritualist and an extra rao thumper. (radar will be a sea of spirits basically).

searing flames way (will farm noobs only)
2 rao or grenth
3 sf ele
3 monks

but to be quite honest... its premature to scream about imba 8vs8 builds for 2 reasons

1) skill balance update isnt out yet
2) HA hasnt been changed back to 8vs8

i really wish you didnt end your post with the wish for heroes to be brought back to HA...

you kinda lost all credibility in that 1 sentence... sorry.

bhavv · Jan 04, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Again please remember that i used those builds as quick examples, there not the definate final builds.

The builds would work fine with 5 spikers and a 3 monk backline, Invoke lightning *really* does plenty of damage.

Air spike worked very well prior to 6v6, it might not hold halls as easilly as blood and ranger spike, but it is clearly very powerful. A constant barrage of invoke lightning, lightning orb and lightning strike is very powerful and does an insane level of damage, and a perfect spike with invoke hitting up to 3 targets at once is not infusable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

but to be quite honest... its premature to scream about imba 8vs8 builds for 2 reasons

1) skill balance update isnt out yet
2) HA hasnt been changed back to 8vs8
.

I originally posted this in the 6v6 vs 8v8 disscusion, but it got moved here.

Yunas Ele · Jan 04, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I absolutely hated builds like blood spike, IWAY, Vimway etc and would not like to see them return. Everytime I played balanced, we were usually obliterated by builds like these regardless of packing the neccassary counters as they simply have too much DPS.

Also Balanced rarely ever held halls. It was always ranger, blood or some kind of overpowered spike.

You have the neccesary counters.... then it comes down to player skill. IWAY and B-Spike outplayed you if they beat you when you had the neccesary counters. Its because they played better than you that match. Were as in 6v6 you can't fit all the counters so its rock paper scissors, which is probably why you like it. People outplayed you in 8v8, but now in 6v6 you can win because you are scissors and they are paper and you don't face rock very often. Am I right?

Also ViM is dead. It was biggest fotm when 6v6 first started but the skill ViM was nerfed so its dead no matter how many players in the team....

I don't know about you but I saw balance hold just as much as the other builds out there...

B Ephekt · Jan 04, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

No you cannot interupt the stability through resolve TY.

Psychic Distraction, which was anything but uncommon in 8v8, CAN interrupt through resolve and glyph/mantra/song of concentration. "TY"

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I absolutely hated builds like blood spike, IWAY, Vimway etc and would not like to see them return. Everytime I played balanced, we were usually obliterated by builds like these regardless of packing the neccassary counters as they simply have too much DPS.

Spikes have almost no DPS. Sorry but you sound like you lack a fundamental understanding of pvp in this game.

As for balanced losing to spikes, well, that has to do with player quality, not overpowered builds. Balanced should have the easiest time dealing with spikes since they usually have an infuser, prot and active shutdown or interrupts. Running balanced and losing to spikes doesn't really say much, except that perhaps your groups were bad or inexperienced.

Quote:

Also Balanced rarely ever held halls. It was always ranger, blood or some kind of overpowered spike.

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say you don't know what you're talking about. Balanced held quite a lot in 8v8... or should I say the good balanced teams did, the bad ones just farmed fame up until scarred earth.

Lorekeeper · Jan 04, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Air spike worked very well prior to 6v6, it might not hold halls as easilly as blood and ranger spike, but it is clearly very powerful. A constant barrage of invoke lightning, lightning orb and lightning strike is very powerful and does an insane level of damage, and a perfect spike with invoke hitting up to 3 targets at once is not infusable.

my only advise is this.

if your spike builds can confidently answer each and every problem i have identified in my first reply to your post... then yes i think you will have found the uber imbalanced 8vs8 build of doom.

unless you can address those problems i found... and you would have to address at least 75% of them. There really isnt any discussion needed. Running a successful and imbalanced spike build in HA/Tombs is so much more complicated than bringing enough dmg to kill something.

let me add some more problems

14) How will you camp wards against teams with AoE? Sandstorm or savannah heat or even a dervish will make wards a liability. But the second you leave the wards your spike become too easy to disrupt.
15) Ok lets say im having difficulty killing you in the wards... wat do i do? i let you kill someone in the ward and up goes well of profane... goodbye air attunement.. hello exhaustion.
16) what do you do against dual mes builds with 2 enchant removals each? Thats enought to strip 2 off your air ele attunes constantly...its probably enough to keep air attune off 4 of your air eles.
17) im thinking that hard rez might make its way into HA if it goes back to 8vs8... in that case... how do you propose to wipe an enemy team if all you can manage is to kill them 1 at a time. And trust me... you wont be spiking 3 people if you face a good team.

until you can present a working build... plz dont cry imba build! cos currently the build you have is just nothing to be scared of. And nothing you have said so far demonstrates that you have the knowledge and experience to back up your claims.

simply saying BUT I HAVE ENOUGH DMG TO KILL THREE PEOPLE IN A PERFECT SPIKE...

just doesnt cut it

Thom Bangalter · Jan 04, 2007, 05:47 AM // 05:47

all those builds are common in GvG. What's your point?